Pensees: Good TV

Bob, I haven’t had the opportunity to check this out (and probably won’t - I purposefully switched to DSL to get us away from cable television’s offerings), but I’m really not sure where to land with MacArthur. As seen in his recent launch of the Pulpit Magazine in e-mail/blog form, he is aggressively promoting his lordship salvation doctrine again (still), and he himself said (in yesterday’s e-mail/post: http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/09/27/a-15-year-retrospective-on-the-lordship-controversy/) that it affects all areas of life and doctrine. It taints everything.

I have benefited from JM’s preaching and commentaries since the early 80’s when I first heard him on a Chattanooga Moody affiliate while driving from GA to IA on military leave. I’m just worried at the confusion he brings with his doctrines and his broadening affiliations. (I’m even concerned at the mix with Piper and Mahaney, frankly.)

Are more teachers better, or should we encourage our people to learn what their own shepherds are seeking to teach them? Is not there a warning that people will heap to themsevles teachers, having itching ears (presumably caught up in listening and not learning), a habit which ulimately leads them astray? Who is given to shepherd your flock (or mine), JM or us? There is so much, well, garbage “out there,” and people read and listen with little understanding or discernment that Lordship salvation, the charismatic movement (with its additional revelation and accompanying diminished focus on the written Word), covenant theology and the like all make a big difference why people write and say what they do, and how they interpret Scritpure. Is not Paul’s warning in Acts 20 sobering, telling us that from within will come wolves?

Thoughts only. Thanks for your ongoing stimulation (and thank God for misfits).

— Kevin

I’d love to hear Bro. Bob’s response, not to Kevin specifically, but to this line of thinking which is so dominant in certain parts of Fundamentalism.

Me too. I’ve not heard of anyone else bringing this up.

I’m interested in commenting, but I’m not exactly sure what you are asking specifically. My views on MacArthur, Lordship, Covenentalism, or what? I must be missing the point…

BTW, Kevin, is that a new website? I have always been interested in seeing a picture of you, your wife, and your 13 children. Nice site. My wife and I browsed it this morning as we sipped our morning coffee.

My concern is that of promoting teachers that, without discernment, can confuse and harm as much as they can benefit. MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation is such an issue which impacts a great deal of one’s theology. More teachers, though they have good points, are not necessarily helpful. The growing number of teachers of diverse backgrounds just seems to add to the confusion. I’m not against using teachers, but as I see it unless people understand the sway that these key doctrines (such as Covenant Theology or Lordship) have on one’s interpretation. How do you measure and mete whom and what you endorse (I ask this honestly, not accusingly)? It seems to me that it isn’t the many teachers that makes a disciple, but the learning of what is taught. Does that make sense?

Having been involved in the Christian book industry (book store and vendor portions), I just know that just because something is in print or is popular has no bearing on its Biblical accuracy or benefit. I also know that books (or radio programs or web sites) can be as dangerous to believers as false teachers in the pulpit. How do you help your people learn but be safe?

An additional issue is that of who is assigned responsibility of caring and protecting the flock, as well as feeding them. The flock, by design, seems to be cared for by the local shepherd(s), not the radio speaker (TV, web, etc.). I’m alarmed by the diffusing of the emphasis of the local church and the ability of a local shepherd to care for and protect the flock God has placed him over. One simply doesn’t have the time to answer all objections or deviations.

Yet one more issue is that of displacement. If everyone is studying anyone and everyone else, when do they have time to be equipped within the God-designed system of the local church?

I’ve grown to encourage people to study less broadly, and work to learn what is taught in one’s local church, as that’s God’s plan. The growing list of messengers, their messages, their media, and their diverse theologies simply muddies the waters. Your thoughts on this?

I modified the picture page on our web site. It has been around for quite some time. I finally uploaded some of the zillions of pictures I’ve taken. (What type of coffee? Do you grind your own?)

— Kevin

By the way, Bob, it’s 14 kids. Joseph, our 14th, was born October 14th of last year. (9 girls, 5 boys, 4 graduated from high school, 1 married with 2 kids, 1 in college).

I grew up in a church where outside reading was not encouraged and I have grown more in the past 4 1/2 years since I became a part of the ministry of Pastor Bixby (and his outside reading program) than the entire 20 some years in previous ministries. Yes, his reading suggestions do include some by John MacAfthur. I am enjoying a book of his now, actually.
I think (you can correct me if I am wrong, Pastor) that it is important to get reading from outside sources along with the Bible (of course) so that one will know if his own pastor is preaching heresy. I believe that one of our jobs as sheep is to critique (not criticize) our shepherd. If all a person is taught is what their pastor says, how are they going to know the difference between truth and heresy?
In prayer meeting last night we learned from the book of II Timothy that we (especially women) need to be discerning in what we see, hear, read, etc. As a stay at home mom, I do have access to the internet, tv, radio, etc… when no one else is around. It could be easy to be swayed without the help of the Holy Spirit who teaches us discernment. I have to rely on Him daily in this area.
After watching a certain “heretic” on TBN last night, I would so much rather see and hear the preaching of John MacArthur on TV than these “heretics” that I get to choose from now.

Heidi,

We are certainly commanded to teach and admonish one another, but what Scripture would you cite to say that you are responsible to critique your pastor? I’m very much guessing that he’s not perfect. That is not the issue. However, from a theological and exegetical standpoint he’s probably forgotten more than you know (and I’m not being sarcastic). With all of his reading and study, chances are you don’t fully understand the arguments or the issues well enough to truly critique him. It would be similar to attempting to critique a lawyer in law or a surgeon in medicine. You may be able to point out something, but not with certainty.

Also, as you are reading other things, how do you know for sure what is right? MacArthur teaches things (again, a guess) that your pastor does not. Reading exposes you to the teachings and conclusions of others, but that is all.

And what of reading the Scriptures? That is one of our primary focuses. Read the Word. That is by far the safer course. We encourage our flock to read through the entire Bible each year (and many do). Most others read from it every day.

Reading is not bad. It is just that there are so many variants of theology, and underlying assumptions of the writers (view of creation, view of inspiration, view of interpretation, view of revelation and the charismatics, view of salvation/sanctification and Lordship, view of the overall picture - Covenant Theology or Dispensationalism, view of gender roles, etc.). Most don’t even get this (you may). For example, MacArthur’s view of Lordship Salvation permeates everything he talks about and writes about. If one understands the underlying arguments and reasonings one can read and listen with discernment, and pick the good and leave the bad. If one does not understand this impact, one simply can repeat what he says, or refuse it, but without understanding.

Herein lies my point of concern.

Also, when you say “the Holy Spirit who teaches us discernment,” then why all the differences and conclusions. Is the Holy Spirit confused? I don’t believe that this is a subjective issue, and there’s no way to tell that what is giving discernment is the Holy Spirit without the direct proof from the Word of God (which, of course, He inspired).

I do believe that our primary responsibility would be to learn what our shepherds teach us, especially those things that are obvious and clear and foundational. Too much listening or reading or “learning” elsewhere doesn’t produce much but distraction.

Thanks for the interaction. I hope I make sense.

— Kevin

(Why are you even spending your time watching the certain “heretic?”)

Kevin,

I think that Heidi’s point was that as members of the church we still have a responsibility to evaluate what is being taught. This is what the Bereans did. It was also implied as appropriate by the apostle Paul when he wrote to the church at Galatia. I assume that you don’t believe that the congregation should fall into lockstep with every thing that a pastor says or teaches simply “because he’s the pastor” (see chapter 9 of this book). To grant that much authority to a man can lead to spiritual abuse, or, in extreme circumstances, 913 people drinking cyanide laced Kool-Aid in Jonestown.

I recognize that when it comes to these matters my pastor knows much than I know (and he’s also younger and better dressed). But that doesn’t mean that I should abdicate my personal responsibility for my own spiritual growth in exchange for blind fealty to him. Fortunately, he encourages his congregation to read. In addition to the benefit for our own spiritual growth, I believe Pastor Bixby wants his congregation to be diligent students of scripture is that it keeps him accountable. The reason so many pastors become theologically sloppy (IMO)is because the congregation is happy to splash around in the wading pool.

I’m not sure that I understand your question about discernment. Do you mean to imply that because there are so many variants in theology that the Holy Spirit does not give discernment?

I recognize that there are gaps in my theology. Rather than to wander around in blissful ignorance, I believe I am required to fill those gaps. Scripture reading is essential, and should be the first step. But my experience has been that those pastors who discourage reading other authors often do so to cover their own deficiencies, not to protect their congregation from false teachers.

Thank you, Pat, for clarifying what I was trying to say.

Kevin,
I will definitely agree with you that my Pastor does know much, much more than me.
What I am trying to say is that through the use of Scripture, we are supposed to evaluate (using Pat’s word) what he is teaching us.
I have found myself learning from my extracurricular reading (on our Pastor’s recommendation)what some of the terminology and other more difficult things mean (to be very basic) and certain things begin to make sense.
I trust the leadership of my church to recommend books and authors that would help me grow Spiritually, as well as keep them accountable to us.
Like I said before, I find myself growing more now by listening to our Pastor, reading the Word, and accompanying it with good extra reading.
I hope I make sense.

As far as the “heretic”. That I can’t really explain, but at least, sadly I admit, he was entertaining.

Pat,

I am certainly not inferring any lockstep (see my comments on encouraging our congregation to read the Word). It is not blind following, yet to some degree it is following (Hebrews 13:17) and yielding to the protection of the spiritual leaders (Acts 20 - Paul’s comments).

If you read my original reply, I was not offering disagreement, but asking for clarification and his way of protecting the flock in what he recommends. It was a series of questions (followed by additional posts with more questions):

(1) Are more teachers better, or should we encourage our people to learn what their own shepherds are seeking to teach them? This question stems from Eph 4:11-16 and the like, where the local church is led, taught, and protected by local pastors.

(2) Is not there a warning that people will heap to themsevles teachers, having itching ears (presumably caught up in listening and not learning), a habit which ulimately leads them astray? This question stems from 2 Tim 4:1-4, where the emphasis first seems to be on the quantity of teachers and listening for listening’s sake, not for learning, which seems to indicate that discernment is lost at the pursuit of hearing new and more teachers, which eventually leads to deception.

(3) Who is given to shepherd your flock (or mine), JM or us? Similar to #1, I guess (maybe 1 Peter 5:1-5?). No pastor is perfect, but God knew that, and seems to have assigned particular men to particular flocks, and they would have first-hand exposure to the needs and states of those in the flock to which they are assigned. As a member of a flock, my primary teaching (key word: primary) should be from the pastor(s) that God gave to me

(4) Is not Paul’s warning in Acts 20 sobering, telling us that from within will come wolves? This hit me a few years back. Acts 20 reveals Paul summarizing his 3 years at Ephesus, warning them night and day with tears (v 31) because he knows savage wolves will come in among the church, not sparing the flock (v 29), and he knows that from within the church men will arise speaking perverse things, seeking to draw away the disciples after themselves (v 30). This seems extremely urgent on Paul’s mind. How does a pastor (or hopefully, pastors) protect the flock, but to encourage the truth and to discourage the false?

(5) How do you measure and mete whom and what you endorse (I ask this honestly, not accusingly)? While I don’t have a passage in mind, I do see that the emphasis of Scripture seems to be pastors studying diligently and accurately (2 Tim 2:15) in order to preach the Word (2 Tim 4:1-2), not encouraging people to pursue multitudes of other teachers (they seem to have that tendency on their own according to 2 Tim 4:3-4, and it’s not presented in a positive light). By what Heidi stated in her second post, it seems that Pastor Bob has a suggested reading list, which partly answers this question (it does not explain whether he discusses and warns about the particular author’s bents and biases, etc.)

(6) How do you help your people learn but be safe? Another way to ask #5.

(7) If everyone is studying anyone and everyone else, when do they have time to be equipped within the God-designed system of the local church? This would refer back to #1. It seems to me that more study (or maybe more accurately more “studies”) does not necessarily produce learned people, but busy ones. A believer can be so preoccupied with the radio teacher he’s listening to (often several), the book(s) he’s reading, the magazines and blogs he frequents, the TV shows (good ones) that he’s watching, etc. that he’s not doing anything with the primary instruction being received from his local church. We are more exposed to the truth, but are we experiencing it by obeying it, or just bouncing around each day (or hour) from concept to concept, series to serie, lesson to lesson without nailing anything down or doing anything with it? Is more better if it doesn’t stick? Is it better to hear it from eloquent Piper or MacArthur, and ignore my pastor (or relegate him to just another on the list)?

I’d like to comment on your statements, if I may, Pat:

“I think … we still have a responsibility to evaluate what is being taught. This is what the Bereans did.” I agree, but the Bereans were measuring new revelation with the old. What Paul was saying synced with the OT. Once persuaded, they were “in.” (Even in Galatia, Paul’s measure was the revealed Word, not his own words or even the words of angels. The Word itself is the standard.) I think that it goes without saying that the Word is the authority, not the man. However, God has required men to lead and teach (and commands that there be few teachers, James 3:1, because of the expressed difficulty in getting it right, 2 Tim 2:15), and even to refuse to let some teach that don’t know what they’re talking about (see 1 Tim 1:3-11). We listen to the arguments offered by our pastors. We ask questions. We challenge when necessary. We affirm the truth as we are convinced of it. We even yield to them (submitting ourselves - Heb 13:17) at times when we don’t fully agree (same in the home).

“I assume that you don’t believe that the congregation should fall into lockstep with every thing that a pastor says or teaches simply ‘because he’s the pastor’” I don’t believe that there is even an inference of that from anything that I’ve written. I do know that there are some “touch not thine annointed” types out there, and that is wrong and tragic (men worshipers, really). That is the extreme on the one end, and it is an abuse of power. That does not diminish the pastor’s (or pastors’) appointed responsibility “to exhort and convince the gainsayers” in Titus 1, or to protect the flock. With all of the avenues of potential heresy, how do pastors seek to help people not be caught up in the pursuit of knowledge at the expense of truth? All authors are not good authors, and each author approaches his teaching with perspectives that the untaught often have no idea how to discern. With the fads that roll out of the bookstores, it is very frightening (Prayer of Jabez, Experiencing God, Purpose Driven Life, even fiction like This Present Darkness, etc.).

“I recognize that when it comes to these matters my pastor knows much than I know (and he’s also younger and better dressed). But that doesn’t mean that I should abdicate my personal responsibility for my own spiritual growth in exchange for blind fealty to him.”” Are those your only two options? Are you absorbing, agreeing, learning, and practicing the truths that he is teaching? That is not “blind fealty,” my friend. That’s an appropriate process of thinking. If you are doing so with your pastor’s teaching, then there is room for reading. Even then, discernment is absolutely necessary.

“The reason so many pastors become theologically sloppy (IMO)is because the congregation is happy to splash around in the wading pool.” Or they are disobedient and lazy shepherds (aka hirelings). Hebrews 13:17 indicates that true shepherding involves extreme weariness in caring for the sheep, and 1 Tim 5:17 indicates extreme labor in study. These are not optional terms of service for any shepherd. Being diligent to rightly divide the Word (a command, incidentally, which was specifically directed to Timothy, a spiritual leader and shepherd, not to the flock) is presented as essential and difficult.

“I’m not sure that I understand your question about discernment. Do you mean to imply that because there are so many variants in theology that the Holy Spirit does not give discernment? No. I’m saying that discernment of the Holy Spirit is neither a mystical process nor a feeling, but it necessarily is rooted in the revealed Word of God. You cannot affirm or discount teaching apart from the Word. You do not discern by how you feel or how much you like an explanation, but how it aligns with Scripture. Discernment cannot exist apart from the Word. The Holy Spirit speaks through His Word, not apart from it. How else does one practice discernment?

“I recognize that there are gaps in my theology. Rather than to wander around in blissful ignorance, I believe I am required to fill those gaps.”” I understand, but your primary training, as assigned by Eph 4, seems to come from your pastor. And it is good to interact with your pastor as you fill in your gaps, not to keep lockstep, but to draw from his insight.

“Scripture reading is essential, and should be the first step. But my experience has been that those pastors who discourage reading other authors often do so to cover their own deficiencies, not to protect their congregation from false teachers.” I’ve honestly never heard of any pastor addressing this, or encouraging people not to read. I’m only 44, and I’ve only pastored 20 years, but I’ve not heard nor met such a man. The exact opposite has been my experience (if experience has any value). I’ve seen just about everything encouraged and for the most part without comment. I have seen people read and listen only to be softened in the faith, or confused and confounded. I have seen people read or hear things that if they only understood the presenter’s perspective, they could have avoided the grief of lockstepping to an erroneous author or teacher. People often follow fads, thinking that popularity (or even recommendations by popular authors) authenticates teaching. My experience in the Christian book world belies that idea. I have seen people read and read and read about how to have a godly marriage, and never get it, because they ignored the same simple teachings from the pulpit. It’s not new information (and new can be bad), but learning and living what we do know clearly from the Word.

Pat, Heidi, and Bob. I’m sorry for my lengthy blabbing. I did not intend to hijack this thread. I’m not against reading. I’m for believers learning the truth without being led astray. I do not see where reading necessarily builds discernment (bad information just gives one bad information unless someone is there to guide a person in the truth). How can pastors help their charges to be safe from wolves, and how do we endorse who we endorse when there are so many “flavors” of doctrine that can confuse and lead astray, especially in light of itching ears?

Understand that I’ve tried to do this to some degree (http://www.subra.net/Resources/EvaluatingBooks.pdf). I’m just wrestling with what to do and how to do it; what to encourage and what to discourage. (And I’m still wanting to know if Bob grinds his own coffee, and if so, what bean(s) he uses.)

Thanks, each of you, for fellowship via the web.

Well, since Milou had to be taken out at 2:30 in the morning….. Brief answers to the enumerated questions:

1. Ephesians 4:11-12 certainly includes me as a pastor/teacher given by Christ to the Body locally to Pat and Heidi, but it doesn’t exclude other pastor/teachers given by Christ to His Body universally. Since I am not only their pastor/teacher, but their elder, “bishop”, and overseer (all biblical terms for the various functions of pastor) then I think that predicates a more thoughtful (even obedient) consideration of my teaching, but it certainly does not preclude the voices of other godly pastors.

2. The warning that people in the last days will “heap to themselves teachers” is certainly in 2 Timothy, but that line is part of a description which includes finding sound doctrine unbearable and seeking out teachers who will teach according to the dictates of the hearers’ lusts. I don’t think the emphasis is on quantity at all (although the word “heap” is used here and only here in the NT), but rather on a deliberate search for teachers who gratify their flesh. Since sin never ultimately satisfies, false teaching often has to equip their churches with revolving doors: people go in and out. (Thus, might I say parenthetically, the “seekers” are finding out). Therefore, I don’t think this applies to members of a sound church who by virtue of the fact that they have chosen to be members of such a sound church are generally not in pursuit of ear-tickling.

3. Who is given to shepherd your flock (or mine). JM or us?

We are, of course. But we are only under shepherds. And, no pastor/teacher (or at least most and certainly in my case) is so deep and broad that he alone is sufficient to be the sole teacher of his flock (as you admit by your use of the word “primary.”).

4. It seems like you asked question #1 with a local definition of the church in mind (i.e. the only pastor/teacher to listen to is the one given to the church locally), but you appear to ask this question with the universal definition of the church in mind because you are suggesting that the false teachers from “within” include those teacher s that we are listening to outside our local church.

Either way, I will suggest that the best way to protect a local church from false teachers within the local church itself is by having a trained ear to God-given teachers outside the local church. It is granted that there are many false teachers outside the local church, but it is the sad experience of too many churches to be the victims of an over protective pastor/teacher who over time literally captivates the minds of his flock. At the very least, imbalance occurs by an over emphasis of the pastor’s pet issues. We have some people in our membership who came from a church that practically taught that no one else in the world had it quite right except them and their pastor. This they were forced to accept as truth even though they were shriveling spiritually and the church was dying right before their very eyes.

5. How do you measure and mete whom and what you endorse (I ask this honestly, not accusingly). While I don’t have a passage in mind, I do see that the emphasis of Scripture seems to be pastors studying diligently and accurately (2 Tim. 2:15) in order to preach the Word (2 Tim. 4:1-2), not encouraging people to pursue multitudes of other teachers. . .

First of all, as a pastor I think the answer is to study and be diligent in the Scriptures. People can tell when their pastor is working hard to understand and know the Word. They can also sense that he is not intimidated by their reading of other material. I would suggest that this builds their confidence in their pastor, not undercuts it.

Interaction with the pastor about books is of course always helpful, but most of the time people read books that are complimentary to what they are hearing in the pulpit. Or, at least they so desire. I have found that the people who are quickest to be judgmental of me as a pastor are the ones who are theologically ignorant and do not read. Reading the right material (and, yes, I have lists and opinions!) will help people become well-versed in the broader battles that engage the pastor’s mind and heart.

6. I thnk we can help our people to be safe by helping them to become thinkers.

7. Again, I understand that there are people who do not want to submit to their church so they study around, so to speak. Obviously, these people do not have an issue with their study, but with their attitudes and rebellion to God’s design. However, a submitted spirit to God’s design for their spiritual growth (the local church) does not necessarily preclude extensive reading. I don’t see it as one way or the other.

Your “straw man,” so to speak, is a person who flits around from one book to the other, one teacher to the other, on fad to the other delighting in the eloquent Piper or MacArthur (btw, I don’t think JMac is all that eloquent. He is popular because he teaches well. Now, Piper can be eloquent) and so forth and that “straw man” is easy to blow down. Of course, I don’t desire that. However, again, I don’t think that means developing a fortress mentality where I shut people off from the influences of the broader Christian world.

I know people right now who were brought up in a separated fundamental baptist church. Now they have left that church and still, after several years, continue to flit around unsettled. Why? Their previous pastor was a well-known (in his circles) pastor who built a fortress and did not teach them to think, just to accept what he said.

Finally, I agree with you about the Bereans. They actually received the Word with all readiness and (subsequently or at least simultaneously) sought the Scriptures. They did not seek the Scriptures, browse around, and then finally receive whatever they approved of by authority of their own findings.

I grind my coffee. Is there another way to drink coffee? I have found one line from Charbucks that I like. But it’s pricey. We are going to try something else.

I appreciate what you are saying, and I probably agree with most points without batting an eye. I’ve just seen where people get caught up in the famous and popular, and loose sight of (and the benefit of) the local ministry.

We are seeking to develop thinkers (which I think diligent and sound study produces), and it is delightful to see people grow in the Lord. I am introducing our teens to the wonderful world of Koine Greek, with the desire to help them understand more of what we believe and why we believe it, as well as tooling them at a basic level to study and reference on their own.

I do, however, see that people can get too involved with outside teachers that they are hearing but not learning. Preaching (radio, TV, or pulpit) can almost a form of Christian entertainment.

I am a confessed book-lover, and have an unnumbered massive library. I am for books. I encourage people to read for stimulation, not so much for information. Let books joggle their own thinking, question their own conclusions, and then go back to the Word to work it out.

As for pastors, to me it is wrong to accept an interpretation from anyone without working it out oneself, affirming its truthfulness. One should start with the Word and work through it, not from a commentary backwards, too.

I have seen where people are persuaded of things without having been in the Word, taking what they read more seriously than the Word (which often they do not read). To me, the healthiest Christians are those that first immerse themselves in the reading of the Word, not the teachings of others (which I am not excluding, but demoting).

I’ll be drinking some freshly ground coffee from New Guinea this morning. My work buddy (a believer) is part owner in a coffee shop. Life is good! (Brazilian, Peruvian, Sumatran all are favorites) It appears that the Lord is not yet finished sanctifying you if you are drinking Charbucks. How utterly nasty ;>)

Thank you for your insight. This conversation has broadened and tempered me. You’ve been helpful (though I think slightly less of you because of the low standard of coffee that you drink!)

— Kevin

“Thank you for your insight” applies to Pat and Heidi too. Thank you all. - Kevin

Hello Kevin,
It’s been a while, God has blessed us with #7 (Ruth Irene).

When thinking about discernment, I notice that Paul defends himself against being a huckster of the gospel when he says “we did not preach ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord”. 2 Cor 4.5. Anything less is “peddling the gospel” cf 2 Cor. 2:17. I sure want my gospel message to stand up to Paul’s