Pensees: Will we have a “Patriotic Sunday?”

Well said.

Brother Bixby,

I do not think that singing patriotic songs on the fourth of July will exclude our brothers and sisters from another country. Those immigrants, of whom my mother is one, came to this country because they wanted to. They love this land. Would you be offended in you were in a foreign church and they sang their national anthem on a special holiday? I live in northeast NJ (15 minutes from NYC) and we have a very multicultural congregation. Our pastor is a Vietnam veteran and he is very patriotic, but not one of our members from a foreign country gets offended by it. I think it would be more offensive to those who have served our country in wars, etc. for their church to not sing patriotic songs on the fourth of July weekend.

You missionaries are sooooooo multi-cultural. It’s like once you let a guy see the world, he doesn’t think it revolves around us. Go figure. ;-)

Anderson’s blog directed me over here. Guys, I would think that all American pastors ought to direct patriotic Sundays around the 4th. We need to point out God’s ways, God’s power, God’s presence through our American church history. Isn’t it all about His story, His sovereignty over Presidents and congressmen and wars. Our kids should hear this. Who is going to fill the void.

Oh, please not the emergents.

E.T.

I completely agree with you Bob. It’s a shame when you celebrate giving to the Lord with a rendition of Stars and Stripes Forever as the offeratory (that was my church this Sunday morning). I do not have a problem with patriotism. What really bothers me is that our churches celebrate Independence Day once a year, just like we celebrate Christmas, Resurection Sunday, etc. While some may argue that we celebrate the birth, death and resurection every Sunday, I would argue that we do it prefunctorily as part of our liturgical worship. So, a full-fledged celebration of our nation’s history is as important to our corporate worship as a full-fledged celebration of the Redeemer coming to Save mankind. I’m not sure how I could possibly support having a Patriotic Sunday. For those of you who think I’m un-patriotic, I’m playing two band concerts tomorrow in Independence Day celebrations in my town.

Don Johnson, a Canadian pastor, had an interesting take on the subject at my blog. The germane portion is in the last paragraph of this comment.

Derek, the question you ask misses the point: Would you be offended in you were in a foreign church and they sang their national anthem on a special holiday?

It is on Sunday in God’s church where patriotic songs are inappropriate. And, yes, it would bother me if this was sung in a worship service. It borders on the idolatrous and the blasphemous. Consider the French National Anthem:

This horde of slaves, traitors, plotting kings,
What do they want?
For whom these vile shackles,
These long-prepared irons? (repeat)
Frenchmen, for us, oh! what an insult!
What emotions that must excite!
It is us that they dare to consider
Returning to ancient slavery!

What! These foreign troops
Would make laws in our home!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would bring down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Good Lord! By chained hands
Our brows would bend beneath the yoke!
Vile despots would become
The masters of our fate!

Tremble, tyrants! and you, traitors,
The disgrace of all groups,
Tremble! Your parricidal plans
Will finally pay the price! (repeat)
Everyone is a soldier to fight you,
If they fall, our young heros,
France will make more,
Ready to battle you!

Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
Bear or hold back your blows!
Spare these sad victims,
Regretfully arming against us. (repeat)
But not these bloodthirsty despots,
But not these accomplices of Bouillé,
All of these animals who, without pity,
Tear their mother’s breast to pieces!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Sacred love of France,
Lead, support our avenging arms!
Liberty, beloved Liberty,
Fight with your defenders! (repeat)
Under our flags, let victory
Hasten to your manly tones!
May your dying enemies
See your triumph and our glory!

Refrain

We will enter the pit
When our elders are no longer there;
There, we will find their dust
And the traces of their virtues. (repeat)
Much less eager to outlive them
Than to share their casket,
We will have the sublime pride
Of avenging them or following them!

Refrain

Excuse the emphasis. I don’t know how I did that. The entire song is what I think should be considered.

Derek,

I also think you are missing the thrust of my argument when you take such strong exception to my sympathy for foreigners. That is really not the gist of my argument. That was an extra, if you will. The main point is that the local church gathers specifically as a called out people from another CITY.

Pastor Wood, I agree with you completely that our children need to hear of “God’s ways, God’s power, God’s presence through our American church history, and His sovereignty over Presidents and congressmen and wars.” In fact, they hear this from me—over and over—as we study history together, reading and discussing the historical records of God’s dealings with man. In my opinion, if we parents were teaching these things to our children as we ought, we would not need a “Patriotic Sunday” in which to learn them at church, and thus we could reserve the church meetings for something of far greater importance, even, than our American heritage—the worship of Almighty God.

Wow. The French National Anthem is something else. If I weren’t so multi-culturally sensitive, I’d point out the irony of the boasting & militancy in light of their recent history. But, alas, I am, so I won’t.

BTW, here’s the link to Don’s comment:
http://mytwocents.wordpress.com/2006/07/03/sermon-summaries-7206/#comment-1983

Since Chris brought up my comment, I thought I would copy it over here:

I haven’t read Bixby’s posts or the discussion on patriotism, but as a foreign observer, I think Americans make too much of patriotism, especially in mixing it with religion. Our citizenship is in heaven and while we have duties as citizens and I am grateful for living in a society that (so far) allows freedom of religion, I don’t idolize the state. I am afraid that many Americans border on idolatry when it comes to the state. The difficulty in sorting these things out comes with the fact that America is arguably the best political system that has ever graced the earth. I am an admirer of the American constitution and the philosophy of political power that it embodies. But in the end, it is just another part of the world system and is not the source of my rights and freedoms. Those come from God.

I would like to add that I am not anti-American, like many Canadians. Canada’s founding principle is “we don’t want to be Americans.” That is not a joke, it really is true. We really became a nation formed out of the United Empire Loyalists and French Quebecers who feared losing their language if swallowed up by an English speaking North America. (For an example of this, consider Louisiana’s Cajuns — actually Acadians, expelled from Nova Scotia by British conquerors.)

My wife is an American, all five of my kids are Americans. We are proud of the fact, and do honour the Lord for the blessings their citizenship brings to our family.

But when it gets right down to it, America is just another part of the world system. My first citizenship is in heaven. My first allegiance is there. That is why if any state countermands the commands of the King of kings, I will not obey the state. Building codes, speed limits, criminal and civil law are all within the God-given perview of legitimate governmental authority in Canada and the USA. When I think of laws of the state that I would disobey, I am thinking of laws that would forbid the assembling of ourselves together as Christians, or laws that would forbid the preaching of the gospel, and such like.

I am not sure that Bob is saying that his position is simply one of respect for the sensibilities of immigrants. It sounds to me that Bob’s view on this point is much like my own.

Regards,
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Chris,

Very astute of you for not pointing it out.

Don,

Very well said. You captured the emphasis of my motive. A pleasure to agree with you! ;-)

Thankfully the American national anthem is nothing like the French national anthem. For that reason, it is not idolatrous to be patriotic in church when we are remembering how our country was founded upon godly principles and the Word of God, and when it causes us to thank God for the freedom to worship in this land. God bless America and bring her back to the Lord. Again, why does this become a bad thing when we are in church? Does the Bible tell us not to do this? Did the OT Jews have this mindset just because this world was not their home? They knew heaven was their home, but they still loved their land—and I know Israel had a covenant relationship with God and America does not, but God shows us that patriotism is not wrong for God’s people to express—and for that matter in church.

Derek,

That’s all well and good to say, but you really haven’t made your case. Overt patriotism in church corporate worship is not justified in Scripture (and particularly in the NT)- submission to the gov’t is, as is prayer for those in authority.

For ther record, these words graced the front of our church bulletin yesterday:
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. -Hebrews 11:13-16

To Todd:

They will hear of Providence often at my church- appreciation to God for the freedoms we enjoy, etc. But I do think it is folly to think of us as a particularly “Christian nation”- especially when we consider the methodologies associated with some of the extremes of that line of thinking. Being a “conservative family values Republican” never delivered anyone from sin’s cruel bondage.

Fine, Scripture may not tell us to do these things in church, but neither does it tell us not too. That is the point I wanted to make. We do a lot of things in our churches that we have not been specifically prescribed to do, but that does not make those things wrong. Again, if it causes us to be thankful to God and brings us to remember the great things He has done in our history, then I do not see the problem with it in corportate worship. And Amen to that passage; I too desire a better country.

Derek,

I will say up front I have participated and even planned several patriotic services. I grew up wearing the ACE red, white, and blue tie with the “76” on it. I’ve sang along with Patch the Pirate, “I Love America!” Hey, my favorite NFL team is the Patriots!

However, the most compelling thoughts that have forced my change of thinking on this is 1. Who we congregate to worship and adore, and 2. How much of the songs we sing, poems and speeches we read, etc. in such services are dedicated to the praise and adoration of the country rather than God. Look at the titles of some of the songs we sing in such services:

“My Country, ‘tis of Thee”

“America, The Beautiful”

“God Bless America” (expressing much more love for the land than God)

I am not even suggesting that there would never be a time where a Christian might not sing such songs- or even against them being sung in church building, say for a special pageant on a weeknight or something. But I can’t help thinking that between “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” and “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy,” we have enough principle to give us all consideration before we turn the focus of our adoration in any way off the Lord and onto our country on the day and time that His church has specifically set aside to worship Him corporately.

Then again, I did not preach a Mother’s Day or a Father’s Day message this year, either.

Derek,

Though not a strict regulative principle person, I would reccommend a thoughtful consideration of this principle. What is not required is forbidden. While opponents of the regulative principle scorn it by proposing ridiculous extremes as untenable (i.e. God did not command the use of a piano, so are we to not use a piano?), the principle is definitely valid when it actually applies to the thoughts and focus of worship.

Words (the main vehicle of thoughts and focus) that directly elevate a country that is specifically NOT mentioned in Scripture, emotions that are NOT commanded in Scripture, and promotes a distinction/differentiation of some of God’s people from others of God’s people that is NOT required in Scripture are, in my opinion, to be words that should be avoided in the context of a congregation of sinner-saints gathered as a church to worship.

I will not go so far as to say that they are forbidden. But I will say that your argument that the fact that they are NOT forbidden justifies its use is a weak argument that has never convinced those who understand the point of the regulative principle.

I think, then, that it is best for the local church to stay as closely as possible to that which is actually REQUIRED in Scripture and to avoid the myriad of options that are actually NOT FORBIDDEN.

Happy 4th! And, may God be glorified for the blessings He has heaped upon us.

Greg,

The position “shift” you’ve described is essentially the same as my own, though I can’t stand the Patriots or pretty-boy Brady. At any rate, “I Love America” as much as Sissy Seagul does, and I’m glad to “Salute Lady Liberty”…just not during our worship service. I’m not de-emphasizing America; I’m just not adoring her during a time specifically designed to adore our Lord. Now, today? Absolutely.

Thanks for the discussion, Bob. We have much for which to be thankful today…and much for which to pray.

Thanks for all the replies and I see your point. This is just one of those areas where I will agree to disagree. Just to check for consistency here, do Brothers Bob and Chris celebrate Christmas in their churches? Just wondering and I will cease on this topic now. Great discussions. Lord bless.

Derek,

I understand your point- but commercial holidays aside, it is very possible to celebrate Christmas with Christ as the center of adoration. We have done a “Lessons and Carols” format for the last three Christmases here with good response. The “Lessons” are Scripture passages, and most of the carols have been congregationally sung- all have been Christ-centered.

Again, my brother, I would ask you to step back a minute and forget how we’ve always done things- and evaluate why. The answers you come up with may prove unsettling- but I have found they are ultimately rewarding when Christ becomes more visible.

We do celebrate Christmas at TCBC. I don’t see how that’s germane to the discussion, however, since our focus at that time is on Christ. More analogous to this situation would be to ask whether or not we sing “Winter Wonderland” or “Silver Bells” in our church at Christmas. We do not. ;-)

Lest I be misunderstood, I did enjoy singing “This Is My Country” with my girls today. And—to quote “God of Our Fathers”—I’m very thankful that the Lord cast my lot “in this free land.”

Stepping out now. Thanks for the conversation. Greg, your “why do we do this?” question is close to meddlin’. :-)

This discussion has been very beneficial for me to read and consider. For myself, I didn’t realize how much I have combined the freedom of America (a primarily physical freedom) with freedom of Christ (a spiritual, mental and emotional freedom). I’ve started to more greatly value the difference between the two this year. Is it true that there are people in prisons who are more free because of Christ than some “free” men on the outside who are oppressed by sin and the world’s system? So what about those who are free in Christ in say…China or other oppressive country? I’ve always told myself that I thank God for the freedom of America that allows me to worship the Lord, but maybe I give too much creedence to my country giving me permission. I don’t need it, do I? So I’ve often said, it’s a blessing to have America’s freedom of religion and should appreciate it, but are there some ways that this freedom is not beneficial? Why am I afraid of slander or verbal persecution, when my brothers in other places are willing to give their lives? This may not be a true story I heard of an American pastor telling a pastor in an oppressed country, “It would be hard to be a pastor in your country, with the hate and physical persecution you are always threatened with”. The other pastor is said to have replied that it would be hard for him to be a pastor in America, that in his country you atleast know where someone stands.

Just for the record:

Last night I sang — even led in —

“My Country tis of thee..”
“O, Say Can You See”
“God Bless America”
“Yankee Doodle” (“with the girls be handy” really means that he is gentlemanly enough to do handyman jobs around the house for them)
“Dixieland”
etc.